Frank Yan's Oral History

JUILY PHUN: -and I said, "You don't need a PhD to do that [redacted]," she goes, "I don't know what you're talking about." -coming to this oral history interview. Uh, my name is Juily Phun, and we're interviewing with the Chinese American Oral History Project in collaboration with [Asian and] Asian American Studies at Cal State LA and the Chinese Community Oral History Project. Today is April 19th, 2017, and the time now is 11:30. So, after much drama...

FRANK YAN: [laughs]

JP: Will you please state your full name, the year you were born, and where you were born?

FY: My full name is Frank Yan, Y-A-N. I was born in 1954 in Hong Kong.

JP: Mm-hm. So Frank, you know, we talked a little bit about your mother. And I was wondering if you can go through a little bit of your family history about your mother, uh, before we continue on to the interview with yourself.

FY: Sure. Uh, well, just- just briefly, I don't know how far back you want to go, go into history, but- but my mother was actually born in Portland, Oregon, and as a child, she returned back to China with her family. So when the, um, the Communists took over China in the late '40s, she was able to, um, to escape -- after, I guess, couple years of "re-education," as they would call it -- escaped to Hong Kong, where I was born. And it took a process about, uh, almost a year for her to reestablish her citizenship, or that she was actually born in the United States, for her to get a visa for our entire family to come to the United States.

JP: And what were the circumstances of her being born in Portland? Was your grandfather a merchant in the United States? What was- do you know a little bit about your grandfather?

FY: Yes, I do. My grandfather was- was a merchant. He had- actually, the first time he had come to the United States was, uh, back in 1915, as- as a merchant. And at that point, uh, he had established several... Well, he had established his family members as far as who the kids were, and- including a couple of paper sons.

JP: Oh, is that right?

FY: And a paper daughter. So that was established. And I was able to verify that through the interviews from the National Archives, from Angel Island when he first- first arrived. So his intention, then, to arrive in, uh- he arrived in San Francisco and then proceeded to Portland, Oregon, where there was a, a business that was owned by a fellow villager, I guess. And so he was intending to establish a business, or he did establish a business, in Portland, Oregon.

JP: Mm-hm. Do you know what kind of business he was in?

FY: It's, uh, yeah. Chinese, Chinese goods. Import/export of Chinese goods, you know, for- in the Chinatown area up in Portland.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So, uh, he had spent almost five years here that first time. And he was here by himself before going back, uh, to China, and then returning. In 1924, he returned, uh, believing, I forget what the- there was an act that was gonna exclude Chinese women from coming to the United States. So before this was actually enacted, uh, he had told my grandmother that they needed to- if they wanted to come to America, they needed to come now. So my grandmother, uh, seven months pregnant with my mother, [chuckles] and the other kids and paper sons, came to, to, to America in 1924. And I think about two weeks after they arrived, my mom was born.

JP: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

FY: [laughs] So she was born in Portland, Oregon, where he continued in the business. She had another brother that was born in Portland, Oregon, also. So after a couple of being here, the story goes that my grandmother, who was having- who was used to having servants and maids to help her at home, couldn't handle all the kids. [both laugh] So she says, "I need to go back, 'cause I need help. I can't handle all the kids here by myself." And they decided to go back to China.

JP: And the whole family went back to China.

FY: The whole family went- well, not the whole family. Just the younger ones, her older brothers and the, um, the paper son. Actually, the paper son was actually his blood nephew, and the other ones were just fellow villagers. The girl that came with them, actually, and I found it in one of the research, she had- shortly after they arrived there, I found a marriage certificate of her marrying someone up in Vancouver, Washington, and my grandfather was actually the witness at the, [laughs] used as a witness on the marriage certificate.

JP: Is that right?

FY: Yeah. So they, uh-

JP: -and how old was she, did you know?

FY: Uh, I think she was about fifteen or sixteen.

JP: Oh, okay. Uh-huh.

FY: Yeah, when she came with them. 'Cause I think the oldest- the oldest one was actually the- his nephew, and he was about nineteen when they came.

JP: Oh, wow. So he stayed behind.

FY: He stayed behind, or had intended to stay here. And then the- one of his blood sons stayed behind, also. And so she also had a, another older sister that- and her and the, her younger brother, had gone back to China.

JP: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

FY: And that was couple of years after I'd say 1926, or somewhere right around there, so.

JP: So you said that- did they settle back in the same village that they came from?

FY: Yes, yes.

JP: And do you remember what village that was?

FY: The village is in the city called Sun Chong City in Toisan [Taishan]. I mean, a lot of the- well, back then it was called, Toisan was called Sunning [Xinning], it was a different name, and then somewhere along the line, they changed the name like what it is today, they changed the name to Toisan. So the village is Wing Ning Village in Sun Chong City area there. So that's my mom's relatives.

JP: Mm-hm. So you said that one of the reasons, one of the biggest reasons was because your grandmother wanted help with the children. So do you- did you remember stories of what your mom said about what it was like to grow up in Toisan, in the village?

FY: Uh, yes, yeah, we hear- [chuckles] we hear a lot of stories about, from growing up. And one of the- [laughs] one of the favorite stories my mom likes to tell is that actually, when she was born here in Portland, and my grandma was having so much- or, having such difficulties, my grandma wanted to sell my mom.

JP: Oh!

FY: To another family. [laughs] And so she says, but my grandfather wouldn't have it. So he says, "No, we're not selling her." And so she's always told that story, where grandma wanted to sell her to another family here in Portland, but my grandfather refused.

JP: Oh, is that right?

FY: Yeah.

JP: Because by this time, how many children was your- did your grandmother take care of?

FY: She had, uh... Well, there was three. Three, four kids actually, that she really had to take care of. And it was hard for her because at one time, her feet were bound.

JP: Oh, okay.

FY: And then they were unbound, but I can still remember when actually, when she actually came over, that when she'd walk around the house, she would have to shuffle.

JP: Oh, okay.

FY: Just shuffle very slowly around the house because she- her feet had been bound. And her feet was probably, you know, if you look at her, at like maybe about a size five or something like that. So that probably contributed to her problems of chasing the kids around, I guess, right?

JP: I would imagine so.

FY: Yeah.

JP: So when your mom went back to Toisan with her family, did your mother have her feet bound, too?

FY: Uh, no, no. I think by that time, that was coming out of style already. And a lot of the women were having their feet unbound, that were bound were having their feet unbound already, so.

JP: And did your mother tell any stories about the village, then?

FY: Uh, she, mostly, her memories of growing up is... You know, my grandparents, I guess- well, she says, were pretty successful businesspeople back in China. So there was always- and they have at one time owned an import/export store, and then they owned a, uh, [smacks lips] a gold business. They dealt in jewelry and gold.

JP: Wow.

FY: And I guess one of the significant things about having that kind of jewelry gold business thing is that when people from the United- or not even necessarily from the United States, but Chinese that were not living there. When they sent money back home, the money had to go someplace to be exchanged.

JP: Right.

FY: And so most of the people, or just about all the people, took 'em to the jewelry store, gold store, to exchange that money to the Chinese currency. So that was very profitable, too; obviously there was probably some kind of a percentage that was charged for it. So that, in addition to the sales of the gold and the jewelry stuff like that, was very profitable for, you know, for them.

JP: Do you know if your grandfather still kept his import/export business in Portland?

FY: That, yes, he was- well, see, he was a partnership in that, so that partnership was still, was still going.

JP: Uh-huh. So he had a business in China and in Portland.

FY: Yes.

JP: Oh, wow. So he did very well for himself, then.

FY: Well, I think he did, he did okay. And you know, she talks, I know she talks about the- or one of the things she talks about is that at one point, he was able to- he owned a, I guess, a ferry boat-

JP: -mm-hm, wow!

FY: -that carried people from China to Macau.

JP: Wow!

FY: And because of- well, she says, and I don't know if that was actually the case, but at that point back then, so he had purchased the boat for like three hundred thousand, I think. Uh, but it was a business, right? So he's running people back and forth to Macau. And actually, and she mentioned later, near the point where the Communists had taken over, it was because of that that my paternal grandfather was able to leave the Toisan area, because he was- the restrictions of him moving, they weren't and he was able to- they were able to smuggle him out on the boat, into the Canton City.

JP: Mm-hm. Then, you know, and you said- so you were talking about your maternal grandparents now. What do you know about your paternal family, then?

FY: Uh, my paternal grandparents, I know that my paternal grandfather was more of a, um, academic.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: He had graduated from the Peking University back then with a law degree.

JP: Wow.

FY: I know that he was a, at one point, he was a principal. And I think, [chuckles] well, he was at one point, he was an auditor for the government. And I think that's what got the family in trouble-

JP: [laughs] Yeah-

FY: -when the Communists took over, because he had worked for the government.

JP: Right.

FY: And so a lot of, uh, from my understanding is that the, um... The family members that were outside of the village, who were in the city, really didn't suffer that much, as much as the people that were actually in the village there, so. But yeah, he spent a lot of time, and I've got- we have a basement full of books that my grandfather had loved to read. And so after he had passed away, he had- my father had the books shipped, shipped over to, you know, to keep. So now we have a [chuckles] whole basement full of Chinese books that nobody can read. [both laugh]

JP: So now we're a little bit up to speed with your grandparents. How did your mother and your father meet?

FY: [laughs] They met through an arranged marriage.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: They never saw each other, yeah. They never saw each other until they got married, till the day they were married.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: At that time, my father was also a student, also.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So they were married, and then [smacks lips] my father continued on to school. Which was, you know, in the city, it wasn't in the village.

JP: And what kind of schooling did he get?

FY: He, I think by the time the Communists took over, he was in college.

JP: Mm-hm. What was he going to college for?

FY: Uh, he was doing accounting, from what I understand. He was into economics or accounting, the way he explained it. That's the only way I can explain it in English, yeah.

JP: And so they were from the same village?

FY: They-

JP: -spoke the same language, then?

FY: Yeah, they spoke the Toisan language, or the Toisan dialect. But their village- they're from the same area, they're from different villages. My mom was a Lee, and my dad obviously was a Yan or a Zhen, depending on what dialect you want to say it. But- and I was lucky enough that when China finally opened up, that my father was still around, and he was able to take me back to the village.

JP: Oh, is that right?

FY: And he was able to show me the house that they grew up and they lived in, and where my mom's village was. And you know, back then it was- it was maybe an hour or so walk away, but when we drove there, it was like ten or fifteen minutes away from each other.

JP: Right. Well, I would imagine it seemed really far, didn't it? To them?

FY: Yeah, yeah. 'Cause I hear them talk about, "Yeah, you know, the other city across the river is Changsha." And my mom would say, "Oh yeah, yeah. You used to- you'd have to cross the big river, and it took a couple of hours to get to Changsha." And actually, when you drive now, it's probably about ten, fifteen minutes now.

JP: Yeah.

FY: Yeah, so.

JP: So they got married in the early 1950s, then?

FY: 1940s. 1944, they were married, yeah.

JP: And so they spent some time right before the Revolution then, the end of the Revolution, you said, being re-educated. Did they ever tell you any stories about that time?

FY: My- well, uh, yes. The only ones that were really re-educated was my mother and my grandmother.

JP: Because they were wealthy.

FY: Right. Because they were wealthy, and because of- and this was like- well, let's put it this way. It was my mother and my father's mother.

JP: Your mother and your father's mother, okay.

FY: Yeah, so, and they had lived together at the village.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: 'Cause this was after they were married, so my mom lived with my father's family. So the rest of the- the rest of the family were in Canton, they were in the city. So it was just my mom and my grandmother, and I think my father had a younger brother who was there, you know, for a short while. But I remember stories of her telling me that when they were back in the village, in the village area there, and that's where my maternal grandfather's store was, also. And she'd always say, "Yes, when- first the Japanese came."

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: "And they took whatever the store had."

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: "And then when the Communists came, they took the rest of whatever they had."

JP: What was left.

FY: Yeah, so, everything that they had. And I guess when the Japanese came, they had buried a lot of stuff and hidden a lot of stuff. But when the Communists came, it was a little different. And I think mainly because she says that, you know, the Japanese came, you know who they were. But when the Communists came, not only did they, uh, change the people's thoughts and minds around there, but the people that turned against you were your own villagers.

JP: Mm.

FY: People that knew you, so there was really no hiding anything.

JP: Mm.

FY: And to this day, she- she'll say that she would never go back to China. Because it wasn't- it wasn't the Communist government per se, but it was the local government, or the people that you knew, that turned against you. People that you grew up with are the ones that turned against you.

JP: Does she ever specify the kind of stories that- about what had happened?

FY: She had, uh, yeah. So she was in forced labor. She had my older brother, I had two older brothers, and they were born at the time.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So, you know, she had to go out and work in the fields, and with hard labor, carrying the two kids with her. I remember a story of her working out in the fields, and then her one time just working on the fields, and my second brother was on her back. And he was, you know, like babies do, they cry, and she couldn't get him to stop crying. And then one of the Communist guards or overseers just slapped my brother-

JP: [sharply inhales]

FY: -back several times, just to tell him to stop crying, so. And you know, she talked about being forced to kneel, to continuous- to repeatedly kneel until she would tell 'em where the gold and all the money was hidden. And one particular story she tells is about when they were questioning her, is that they threatened her with forcing feces down her throat-

JP: [sighs]

FY: -if she didn't tell. And I've asked several times about what happened and she says, "You know, at this point," and I don't know what really happened, but her only response was that, "You know, I blacked out after that." So whether she actually blacked out or was just blacked out memory, I don't really know. But she said she blacked out after that, and that she doesn't remember what happened after that. But that's one particular story that she tells.And she tells about- you know, after she left, I know my grandmother was still back there. My grandmother was a- this grandmother was a real tough cookie. She was- she was pretty fearless, and that's probably why she lived to 103. But yeah, she was pretty fearless. But I know when her re-education was, she still stood up to the people that tried to threaten her, and I know that she was not- well, she said she was not- my grandmother was not allowed to eat anything fresh. You know all the pickled vegetables, that's the only thing she was allowed to eat.

JP: Hmm.

FY: And they would, I guess, monitor, you know, how she ate and what she ate. And like I said, these were supposedly your fellow villagers or people that you, you know, [*speakers overlap*] *that you grew up with, right?

JP: *Grew up with, right.*

FY: So that was her biggest anger about it. It's people that you knew that turned against you.

JP: Mm-hm. And how did your mom escape that, then? Did she escape with your grandmother?

FY: Actually, she didn't, no. She didn't escape with my grandmother. And you mention that, and it just- you know, I've kind of been going through a lot of my old- my dad's old paperwork, too.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And so the story that she tells me is that they had- they still had some money in the bank, and so we have- her nephew, who was a little older, was... Her story was that her nephew, uh, my cousin, was to get married in Hong Kong.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So they- that was her story for her to leave, to go to the wedding. Because she had- still had some money in the bank, they said, "Okay, well, yeah. There's no problem, you can go." So that's how they actually got out of Hong Kong. My dad was already in Hong Kong with my grandfather already, uh, his father. So, and I mention this because I think within probably about three to four weeks ago, just going through some other stuff, I found that letter.

JP: Is that right?

FY: I found that letter that they had written saying that he was getting married, and they needed her to, uh, to be there to help plan the wedding and everything else, and so. I don't read Chinese, but my wife does.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So I'd asked her to look at some of the stuff and she goes, "Ah, it's just some letter about somebody getting married in Hong Kong." I said, "Who is it?!" [laughs] She goes, "Oh, it's your cousin." Then I goes, "My cousin was married here in Los Angeles. He didn't get married in Hong Kong." But that was the cover letter that- or that was the excuse they used for her to get out of the village to escape to China.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So I says, "Without that knowledge, this is- you know, you wouldn't-"

JP: -without that letter!

FY: Well, yeah. But without that knowledge, you wouldn't think nothing of the letter, neither.

JP: Right.

FY: Right?

JP: Right.

FY: So- and I said, I just found that like three weeks ago.

JP: Oh, that's so wonderful.

FY: So that was kind of exciting. I said, [laughs] "Oh yeah!" So a lot of the things that- a lot of those stories that- well, as I said. When I started looking through my family history, a lot of the stories that I heard growing up- you know, and they're stories, right? You hear these stories about this and you hear stories about that. Like one of the stories we heard is, or we heard, I asked my ah ma [paternal grandmother], "How was my grandfather able to come over?"

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: She says, "Well, he knew someone from the consulate, and so they gave him a visa to- to come over."

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So I said, "Oh, okay," I said, you know. [laughs] I figured, what, he knows him, so. As I started going through a lot of the paperwork and pulling stuff out of the National Archives, I actually found his visa the first time he came over. And then on the bottom of the visa, and I think the vice-consul, was John Sawyer.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: And he writes on there that, uh- I guess they had to do an investigation to verify if they are actually merchants or not.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So he's- and this was in 1915, the visa was issued in 1915, so. And actually, and he writes on there that they actually have known my grandfather and his brother, who had a business, since 1913.

JP: Wow.

FY: And he had visited their store, you know, a couple times before.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: So, you know, when you hear these stories, and then there- you actually have documentation to back it up, it's like, wow, you know? They're not just stories, right? I mean, there's something to this story. And this was before my mom's time, too, right? So she wouldn't have really known unless the story was actually passed down to her. So those are kind of exciting things, and just mentioned this guy, John Sawyer, who was the vice-consul. I guess he was real prolific photographer, too.

JP: Is that right?

FY: And so he was vice-consul there and then mainly in Shanghai.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: But he has an archive of photos from China-

JP: -wow-

FY: -that is archived at Cal State Northridge.

JP: Oh, wonderful!

FY: And so, I was actually- and I was more curious than anything, and I had a nephew that was actually going to Cal State Northridge.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: So, and I was online, I was able to find some, uh, some indications that he had taken some pictures of Toisan back then.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: And so I asked him to pull 'em. So I've got a couple of old pictures of the Toisan village and everything back, way back, you know, way back when.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So, you know, that's kind of interesting. It shows the gate of the village and stuff, so. And I haven't seen any of the- I haven't had the chance to look at any of the other pictures yet. So that's one of the other things that [chuckles] might be fun to do, just go take a look at some of the pictures that they have archived there.

JP: Oh, that would be wonderful!

FY: Yeah.

JP: And so your mom managed to come, then, to, you said Hong Kong, because of this letter that said that she was needed for a wedding. What did she proceed to do then? She went to the consulate herself to appeal for her birth certificate?FY: Well, my grandparents were in Hong Kong, also. Both of 'em, my maternal and [paternal], they were in Hong Kong. So, uh, yeah. And I have- from Hong Kong, I guess when they first arrived in Hong Kong, I've got ration cards for them that I found, for rice. And they've got- they issued them, I guess, identity papers for being in Hong Kong, too. So from what I can gather, first of all, they had to show that she was actually born in the United States.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So she had- I guess she at one point, when they originally left the United States, they have exit papers with her, obviously when she was a baby.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So, you know, obviously there was no Xerox machine or copiers, and so they had photographs of this exit paper, but they didn't have a birth certificate.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So they had to petition or write to the Oregon State to look for her, uh, birth certificate.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: But as you know, the Chinese names are all phonetic.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So your name is whatever the person translating your name is to, right?

JP: Right.

FY: So, uh, her name back then was P-U-I-N-G-O-R, Puingor. P-U-I, yeah, N-G-O-R. But her- when they- that's what she was named, that's what she'd used growing up in China. But when they did- when they wrote her birth certificate, it was P-U-I... G-O-W.

JP: Oh.

FY: Right? So they couldn't- so initially, they couldn't find it.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And [laughs] so, and my wife mentioned this, "You know, if they had," she says, "by the time they-" I think I was just born after maybe she got the visa. She goes, "You know if they found that earlier, you would probably have been born in the United States?"

JP: Probably.

FY: Right?

JP: Right.

FY: So, so when they actually- after a couple of letters back and forth, they were able to find it, and they actually sent a copy to Hong Kong where she was at. And then she was able to go to the consulate and petition for a passport, and a visa to come here. And then she had to, in addition, she had to prove that she was married to my dad and, you know, that the three kids were hers. So, luckily, you know how people send pictures back and forth to family members and everything? So luckily, the pictures she had sent out of our family and stuff to my grandparents and other people- she was able to collect all of that and put 'em together. And I have those actual, uh, pages-

JP: [gasps]

FY: -that she submitted to the consulate identifying who was who on those papers.

JP: That's so beautiful.

FY: And so those were submitted to prove that, you know, this was the husband, and from way back when, this is the son, and everything, so. So- then we were able to also get visas to come to the United States, too.

JP: So nobody came looking for her then, from Toisan? Like none of the officials?

FY: Uh, I don't think so. I think once you get out, they says, "Okay, well, you know, you're out." So what happened after that, you know, I don't know. 'Cause I know that she had- and I think one of the reasons why she had [left], I know that at one point, she had mentioned that they were told by other family members that they were gonna be arrested, and so that's why she had escaped to Hong Kong- I mean, well, escaped to Canton first, to the city. And I think that just because you got to the city, if you didn't have papers to be in the city, uh, it was- you couldn't work, you couldn't do anything else, right? So she was stuck in that position, too, so. But I think under threat that she was gonna be arrested, she kind of hastened the idea of going to Hong Kong.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So first coming out to Canton, and then going to Hong Kong for the wedding.

JP: Whatever happened to your paternal grandmother, though? Did she go with your mother?

FY: No, my paternal grandmother stayed in, uh-

JP: -in Toisan?

FY. In Toisan, yes. And she lived there until... uh, probably in the early or maybe late '80s? And then we were able to get her out to come to the United States.

.

JP: Oh, wow. And where was your paternal grandfather?

FY: Uh, he was in Hong Kong.

JP: Uh-huh. So he wasn't able to bring her over?

FY: No, no. He was in Hong Kong, and my maternal grandmother and grandfather were in Hong Kong, also.

JP: What were the circumstances that had split your paternal grandparents?

FY: Uh, my grandfather was working.

JP: That's right, so he was [*speakers overlap*] *back and forth, then, all the time.*FY: *Right, he was back and forth, yes, and-*

JP: -especially with the ferry, the ferry business.

FY: Right, with the ferry, and- well, not necessarily with the ferry business, but he was working as a government auditor. And so he was- and I think he was based in, back then it was called Chungking [Chongqing]. I guess today it's called, I don't know what the [chuckles] Mandarin name for it is, Manju? I don't know, something like that. But yeah, that's- so that's- so he was working. I guess it wasn't unusual for the men to be out in the cities working and whatever, and the women to be at home in the village.

JP: Mm-hm. So do you remember then, Frank, what year or what date that you came to the United States then? Because you were one at that time.

FY: Uh, I only remember because I can see from the paperwork, but it was in 1955 that we- I think we left Hong Kong in April and arrived in May of 1955.

JP: And where did you arrive to?

FY: San Francisco.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And so I have- [chuckles] I have ship tickets for my, for our family that my dad had kept. My dad kind of was just- he kept everything. He kept everything, and he documented. And you know, going through the paperwork now, I see a lot of my father and my grandfather doing the same kind of thing. I know a lot of the- and I'm thankful to have it because my grandfather wrote down a lot of, uh, vital statistics stuff. You know, when my uncles were born, where they were born and where I was born, where my older brothers were born, when they were born. So they had all these dates listed, and that was passed on to each other. So... I was going to a point, but now I forgot. [laughs]

JP: So when you came to San Francisco, it was May 1955.

FY: Right, it was-

JP: -and your father and your grandfather had kept all these records of your ship tickets.

FY: Right, the ship tickets. And actually, the train tickets that we took from San Francisco to L.A., I have the stubs on those train tickets. The- you know, and so he kept everything that allowed me to go back and kind of trace back, you know, where he went. He even kept a kind of a semi-log. I have paperwork from the ship where they have the community sings, with all the songs. [both laugh] It gives the words to all the songs on there, and you know, it's "Home on the Range" and "America the Beautiful," these kinds of songs, and it's listed there, you know? But on the back of it, he writes, he documents, okay, we left Hong Kong then. Then they went to Kobe, Japan, and there was another port in Japan that they stopped in, then they eventually stopped in Hawaii, and then they stopped in San Francisco.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So, you know, based on that, I- I looked at that, and he was also- he documented, you know, all our passport numbers, and then correlated it between the American years and the Chinese years, because they were using Chinese Republic years, and which was what. So it's a wonderful kind of history, that I can kind of follow, of what happened when we came here. And then by the time we got here and we got a little older, a lot of the stuff, you know, I remember. And a lot of the stuff, you know, you hear the stories about. And I know my mom tells a story about how seasick she was.

JP: Mm.

FY: And she had- [laughs] she said she had brought with her, uh, about five pounds of dried duck liver.

JP: [laughs]

FY: The gizzards, you know, the salty ones?

JP: Yes!

FY: Because they told her that that would prevent sickness. She said, "I ate all five pounds of it, and it didn't work." [both laugh] She goes- and I guess back then all the women and the men were separated, right? And so I was with her because I was a baby, and crying all the time because I was on the ship. And she said the ladies felt so sorry for her because she was so sick that whole time, and the journey was almost a month.

JP: A month?

FY: Yeah. And the other story she tells is that my older brother, uh, just being a kid, at one point, I guess, must have hit a button, indicating- a panic button.

JP: [laughs]

FY: Indicating that the ship was sinking. So she says all these horns and sirens were going off, and the doors were closing, the automatic doors were closing and everything and. [both laugh] So those are the only two boat stories that I remember her telling me about, about her trip over to San Francisco, so. [chuckles]

JP: And who all came with you on this trip?

FY: Just-

JP: -was it just your immediate family, or were there more people?

FY: No, it was just my immediate family. It was my mom, my dad, my two older brothers, and myself.

JP: Uh-huh. And by the time you came to San Francisco, why did you decide- or why did your family decide not to stay in San Francisco, but to come down to Los Angeles?

FY: Well, actually, my mom- my mother has a sister in Los Angeles, and so that was one of the reasons. We actually just came briefly to Los Angeles and ended up in Tucson.

JP: Oh!

FY: So we came to Los Angeles because my aunt was here, and then we actually went to Tucson because we had some fellow villagers that lived in Tucson.

JP: Oh, okay.

FY: And so my dad, who always believed that, you know, the way you earned a living was just through your own business.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So we had a market in Tucson.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: Trying to make it in Tucson, which, even now, nothing grows in Tucson, so. [both laughs] So I don't know why we were, why we were there, but-

JP: -and how long were you in Tucson?

FY: We were in Tucson for just probably two or three years. It could've been more than two or three years. My sister was born in Tucson, my youngest sister was born in Tucson. And actually, uh, from what I understand is that business was so bad in Tucson, my dad had to actually leave Tucson and went to Sacramento to work in Sacramento, to make enough money so we can buy a train ticket to come back to Los Angeles.

JP: Oh, wow. What did he do in Sacramento?

FY: Uh, he worked at a store. Like I said, he did accounting work, bookkeeping work. So he worked at a store in Sacramento, so-

JP: -also from friends that were from the village?

FY: Uh...

JP: Or just a job?

FY: I think it's just a Chinese store. I don't know- I don't think they were from the village because the last names weren't the same.

JP: Oh, okay.

FY: And that's my only reason for saying that, there was a different name on there, so that's- that's where he went to work. I believe it was a grocery store or import/export store that he worked at also, so.

JP: And do you remember any of that time in Tucson at all?

FY: I do, I do.

JP: You do!

FY: I do. It's funny, but you know, you think about, when does somebody have their earliest memory? I'm '54, so we probably came- my sister was born in '56. So we must have spent maybe '57, so I must have been, what, three or four years old or something. Yeah, you know, I remember having, you know, I remember having this big yard in the store. And in the yard, we had a chicken coop.

JP: Oh!

FY: A chicken coop and a pigeon coop, they were both for eggs or you know, whatever, I don't- and I remember us having a pig. [chuckles] I remember, yeah, I remember- I know my other brothers were playing in this big yard that we had. And I remember, I vividly remember that whenever it rained, and we lived on- the store was on Riverview. And that's 'cause it was right, just maybe- I know now because I've gone back, it's probably maybe about two hundred feet away from the river.

JP: Wow.

FY: So whenever it rained, all the frogs would come up from the river. I mean, we had like, thousands of tiny frogs jumping all over the place. And I used to take, I used- you know, I don't know why I remember this, but I remember taking a matchstick and tying a needle to it and throwing darts at the frogs. [both laugh] And they wouldn't work. The minute you throw 'em, they just- it bounced off of 'em, but I- and I remember that. I mean, it would just be like one of these horror movies where all these frogs would come up to the store.

JP: [laughs]

FY: They were probably about the size of maybe, you know, a fifty-cent piece or silver dime. But they would come up and they would just run all over the place around the store there, so.

JP: Wow. So did you live in back of the store-

FY: -yes, yes-

JP: -that grocery store that your dad had?

FY: Yeah, we lived in the back of it, like anywhere else, so.

JP: Do you remember there were any other Chinese kids around? Or what kind of folks were there around the grocery store?

FY: Most of the kids around were Mexican kids.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: There was- the other Chinese kids who were around were actually the- like I said, there was a fellow villager from my, [clears throat] from my dad's village. Actually, they were our neighbors in the village.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: Now that I've gone back to the village, they were just like two buildings down from us.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So they were already in Tucson before we got there, so I remember playing with their kids.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: They were a lot older than us, but you know, they would come over to our store and play.

JP: Mm-hm. And what that was-

FY: -and those were the only ones I remember. They had a grocery store, also.

JP: Oh, they did too?

FY: Well, actually, they had a grocery- this store was actually their store.

JP: Oh, okay.

FY: And then they went down the road and had another store, and so my dad thought it would be an opportunity to buy the store from them and then try to run a business, too.

JP: Now do you remember what your dad sold in this grocery store?

FY: Uh...

JP: Was it small, like what we would think of as a liquor store today?

FY: No, it was actually a little, small grocery- it would be similar to a lot of these old Chinese stores we used to have down here in Chinatown. They sold a little bit of everything. You know, there was soap, you know, there was cleaners, there was bread. So it was like a little mom-and-pop market more than anything else.

JP: And the chickens that you had in the back and the pig you had in the back, was that meant for you guys to eat?

FY: Uh...

JP: Did you also sell some of the eggs and then maybe pork in the front of the store?

FY: That I don't know. [laughs] The pork-

JP: -or did you just keep the pig? [laughs]

FY: Well, no. Well, that I don't know, but I have a story about the pig. So, I don't know if we sold the chickens or- I know that we had the eggs and stuff, but I don't remember if we sold the chickens or, you know, what we did with the chickens, actually, so I tend to think that we might have just had it for food. But I remember the small pig that we had in the backyard, and one day it disappeared. [both laugh] One day it disappeared. And I said, "What happened to the pig?" And I don't know if it's actually related or not, but you know in Tucson, they had a Chinese association, also. And so we went to a big party at the association, and I saw this roast pig there, so. [laughs] I don't know if it was actually the same pig or not, but to this day, I think it was the same pig.

JP: [laughs]

FY: I said, "They took our pig!" [laughs] And they roasted our pig for the New Year's celebration or whatever celebration they were having.

JP: At the time, did you make that association-

FY: -no, I didn't-

JP: -or that was much later?

FY: No, that was much later.

JP: Okay.

FY: I was thinking, "Oh, that's what happened to the pig." [laughs]

JP: So if there was a Chinese association there in Tucson, then there must have been a fairly big community. Do you remember as a kid if there were a lot of other Chinese that you saw there, besides this villager neighbor friend?

FY: No, I didn't- as a kid, I don't remember that there were too many other Chinese that we saw around there. Actually, the only two Chinese I really remember seeing are the two, uh, sons of the fellow villager that came over and played there. But other than that, I never really saw any other Chinese. But if you talk- and since then, I've met a lot of people from Tucson.

JP: Is that right?

FY: And actually, the villager, one of the- the younger son, we're actually good friends now.

JP: Oh, wonderful.

FY: And we both belong to our family association, and so. But since then, I've met a lot of people that -- Chinese -- that are actually from Tucson. And it was a very small community there, but a lot of people, markets or restaurants, and everybody knew each other back then, and I quite often run into people. And one of my good friends, he says, "Hey, she's from Tucson!" I says, "[No] way!" She says, "Yeah, I know that market! Yeah, I know that restaurant!" And so there must have been a, uh, a good community of Chinese there. And just on a side note, this friend that I have that I know is from Tucson- they're actually living here now, but they still have family back there, so they go back there now. And so my friend, who actually married the Tucson girl, we were just talking the other day. He goes, "You know, there's a bigger population of Chinese there now."

JP: Is that right?

FY: He goes, "Now the Chinese from China are actually settling in Tucson now."

JP: Hmm.

FY: So maybe they're coming across the border from Mexico?

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: Maybe because, again, a lot of them are being smuggled in from Mexico, 'cause Tucson is right, just down the road from the border there.

JP: Right, right.

FY: So I mean, and they're settling there. But he says that, you know, there's a bigger population of Chinese there now, so.

JP: So then when your father was working, was it your mother that took care of you? Did she have any help from anybody in Tucson?

FY: Uh, no. She watched- she watched the store, and she took care of us.

JP: So it was your two brothers, yourself, your younger sister. Did she have any other children?

FY: No.

JP: Did you have any [*speakers overlap*] *other siblings?*

FY: *No, it was just the four of us.*JP: Just four of you.

FY: Right.

JP: So she also took care of the store then, too.

FY: Yes, yes.

JP: Wow, she was very busy.

FY: [chuckles] Yes, yes.

JP: So- and then after a couple of years, your father made enough money for you to move to Los Angeles.

FY: Right.

JP: Did you move back with your auntie?

FY: Uh... No, actually, we moved right into Chinatown.

JP: Right, okay.

FY: Chinatown, right in the-

JP: -Chung King Road, uh-huh.

FY: Chung King Road, right. Actually, our first store was at 933 and 1/4, Chung King Road.

JP: 993-

FY: -no, 933.

JP: 933 and 1/4 on Chung King Road.

FY: Yes.

JP: And so why did your father move you to Chinatown, then? Is that where your auntie lived, or where did your auntie live?

FY: No, my auntie lived, uh... Back then, she lived closer to South L.A.

JP: Mm-hm, okay. There was a big population-

FY: -yes, yes-

JP: -in South L.A.

FY: She actually lived- they lived on Browning Avenue, which is just, just by Van Ness and- back then it was Santa Barbara, but it's Martin Luther King now.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So that's, you know, that's where my cousins and my auntie had lived then, so. And we moved right into- and going back to the same thing I guess, he believed in having his own business. So we had a, um, a little gift shop down in Chinatown.

JP: Wait, what was your gift shop name?

FY: Sun Chong Company, which is the same name of the city where our village is at. Sun Chong Company.

JP: Huh. I'll have to ask my mom, she might remember that.

FY: We were just down, a few doors down from Fong's, right across from, uh... Well, the market is still there. Hong Sang Lung is still there.

JP: Yes! Actually- okay, I'll have to go down next weekend and see.

FY: [laughs]

JP: Uh-huh. And so your father moved to Chinatown to open up this gift shop.

FY: Right.

JP: Who did this gift shop serve?

FY: If- if you look at what Chinatown was back then, Chinatown was the big -- and this is the late '50s, early '60s -- was the big tourist place.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And I could remember on weekends that Chinatown would be almost like Disneyland with people. It was shoulder-to-shoulder with people.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So they sold a lot of Chinese curio stuff, you know, to the people that came to China- mostly white people, that came to Chinatown.

JP: Mm-hm. Now did you live in an apartment or house next to or above your-

FY: [chuckles]

JP: -the gift shop, or where was your home?

FY: We lived in the loft.

JP: Mm-hm, right above.

FY: No, not above, the loft in the store. Chinatown, you know, at the top level, they're residential.

JP: Yes.

FY: And then the below is-

JP: -business-

FY: -the business. Okay, so we weren't even upstairs, we were in the store. In a loft, in the store.

JP: Oh, just right in the back of the store, then.

FY: Yes, yeah, yeah.

JP: How big was that place?

FY: [laughs] Uh, that place was very, if you- that store was very small, so that place was- was very small.

JP: Right.

FY: So we actually- we stayed there for maybe just, it was just a short period for maybe- and I don't even know how long we were there, but it was a short period. But we ended up moving a couple doors down to a bigger store.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: With a bigger area, I guess, too. And it was still the same thing; we lived in the back, and the bedrooms were- we slept in the loft. So the store had a back that was- it was only a back because it was divided by shelves that we put, you know, for displaying all the goods that we were selling. And then there was a basement that we could live in, in also.

JP: Mm-hm. So in total then, how many rooms did you have in the back store?

FY: Uh... [laughs] I don't know if you would call them rooms or not. I mean, up in the loft, I know that there was [lightly slaps table] our room, and then [lightly slaps table] my parents' room. I mean, it was just a divider there.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And that's the second, the second store. In the first one, I don't think there was even a divider in that one.

JP: You all slept in the same place.

FY: Yeah.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: You know like, my parents slept upstairs and we had a, um- actually had one of those couches where the back fold down, where my brothers slept.

JP: So your brothers, yourself, and your sister shared a room.

FY: Oh, my sister stayed- no. My sister shared a room with my parents.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: And then the boys shared a room.

JP: That must have been interesting.

FY: Yeah. [laughs]

JP: Tell me then, what it was like to grow up on Chung King Road then, Frank?

FY: Chung King Road, you know, [sighs] I have so many good memories of Chung King Road. I mean, to me, it was- it was such a happy time, and I mean- and maybe it was just me, but Hong Sang Lung, the family at Hong Sang Lung, became my second family. And I was a very energetic little kid, and I was all over the place, so there wasn't a whole lot of time for me to stay home. [both laugh] And if it- probably if it wasn't for Hong Sang Lung keeping me busy, I'd probably have been in a whole mess of trouble.

JP: What did they keep you busy with?

FY: Well, I worked at the store, actually. I helped them stack the shelves there and I would help them deliver. Yeah, you're talking seven- six, seven, eight years old. And they really, really, the mother, which we called Lee Heng Siem, was actually like a lot like a mother to me. And uh, [laughs] I mean, I would get in trouble down the street and come home and get whipped. And she would hear me crying and she would come over, and she would save me and take me over to the store.

JP: [chuckles]

FY: I mean, they were such a- they were such a wonderful family to me. You know, Chung King Road is basically a pedestrian street.

JP: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

FY: So, uh, there was actually, obviously, no cars allowed there. And Chung King Road, the side- the west side of Chinatown is half-residential and half-business, whereas the other side is mostly- the plaza side is mostly businesses.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: But, you know, back in those days, Chinatown was where the only markets, Chinese markets in Los Angeles [were]. And so on the weekends, even a lot of the Chinese would come to Chinatown to do their shopping, or what. But a lot of the families in Chinatown would come on the weekends, also, and all the kids would come, too. So on the weekends, we always had a big party.

JP: [laughs]

FY: I mean, we would play all day long. I mean, they would come down with their parents to the shop, or you know, or just to spend the day down there or whatever. But I mean, there were so many kids that we used to play with, that played with each other just on Chung King Road.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And actually, we were actually the subject of a book by Leo Politi called "Moy Moy." And that talks about the Chinese- actually, one of the first books, that actually was published in 1960, and it talks about the Chinese New Year's. And Leo wrote children's books. [clears throat] And not knowing what I know now about Leo, but we used to think, "Oh, he's just," you know. We would see him, he'd come down, and all he'd do was- actually, we just saw him draw. He would walk around Chinatown and he would sketch, draw pictures of kids and whatever. And we played with him- well, I played with him. And there's actually, we actually -- and this is just recently -- found a picture of me all ov- on top of Leo while he's trying to- while he's trying to draw.

JP: Is that right?

FY: Yeah, we-

JP: -where did you find this picture?h

FY: Well, what happened is after Leo Politi passed away, we became friends with his son and daughter. And they actually didn't know that we even existed until we were- they had a memorial for him, after Leo had passed away.

JP: Oh, wow.

FY: And this was down in Olvera Street.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So, uh, and that's where we initially met them. They did a centennial celebration of Leo Politi and his work and everything.

JP: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

FY: And so we helped them, or they asked us to help them with the celebration.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So we're down at the Chinatown public library doing an exhibition of his books and all his studies for the book "Moy Moy." And so they're bringing out all his studies that he drew and stuff that they kind of figured out might be from Chinatown, and they laid them all out in the library. So I'm walking through looking at it, and this is the first time I've seen it. I'm looking and I'm looking and I look, I looked at that. "No, that can't be." [laughs] I look at this picture that they had brought, I said, "That's me!" [both laugh] I said, "That's me on top of Leo!" And in the book, in the book "Moy Moy," my name is Tommy. I'm Tommy in the book.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: And when I looked at the picture- [smacks lips] and I don't remember how exactly it was written down, he says, he basically says, "That's Tommy on top of me, he was, oh boy." [both laugh] And he said, "A passerby took this picture and gave it to me."

JP: Oh, that's so beautiful.

FY: Right? And I looked at it and I said, "That's me! [both laugh] that's me!" So now I have the picture blown up and framed. And it's kind of, it's- I guess it's, to me, now knowing what I know about Leo, I think I really appreciate it more.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And like I said, back then, we thought Leo was just an artist, or just somebody that was just drawing pictures and stuff like that. But as we got to know Leo during the centennial celebration, I believe that what he was doing with the children's books- he wrote children's books about the Chinese, Japanese, the Hispanics, um, and dogs and you know, everything else. But [clears throat] if you look at the- he has... I forget actually what it's called now, but anyways, if you read that, he's actually promoting diversity, and against prejudice. And I really think that he knew that by educating the kids when they were young, before they were actually prejudiced by life, was his way of fighting prejudice, by exposing them to different cultures so that people would know, and people would understand.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So, and I didn't- and like I said, before, we were kids, we didn't think anything about that. "Ah, he's just some guy I used to play with," you know what I mean? "He used to give me horsey rides." But looking at the- some of his writings and some of the stuff that he did, uh, along his life, that's really what, you know, what he was trying to do.

JP: Wow. Now tell me a little bit more about the Chung King boys, the Chung King Road boys.

FY: [laughs]

JP: Tell me a little bit more about this little group right here, because we see it in Leo Politi's children's book. I want you to tell me about that experience, because you talked a little bit about that before.

FY: The Chung King Road- it's what we called the Chung King Road, and these were kids that grew up and played on Chung King Road. I mean, we were- back in those days, it was very, I guess more... I- I would call, kids. I mean, you know, I remember taking a paper box, right? Cutting a hole in- on the side of the box, tying a towel to the back of it, and I had my lion head, my lion dance. [both laugh] And the flap, the flap on there, turned backwards, was my mouth.

JP: [laughs] Wonderful.

FY: [laughs] Right? So, you know, those were the kind of things we did where we played, you know, freeze tag. We played, uh, you know, we played tag, hide-and-go-seek, you know. Those were to me, like, you know, the innocent times, I mean we- and we played with the boys and the girls, and it was always a group of us. More on the weekends.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: But there was a group of us all on Chung King Road that, you know, I would walk down the street and go, "Hey, you wanna play today? You wanna play today?" Or you know, I would ride my- I had skates back then, I would skate up and down the street and see who would want to come out and skate, and going up and down the street. And yeah, it was a pedestrian street, so there was really nothing else to worry about.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: But, you know, those were- were- were the things that kids, I mean... We say Chung King Road because, like I said, it's most- a lot of it was residential. Lots of other people lived there, but a lot of the kids that came that didn't live there, came on weekends, and we played. And that's all it was, you know. We played with each other, and you know, we grew up with each other. And eventually people, as time went by, people started moving out and we lost touch with them. But there's still some of the people that we're- that I'm still in touch with, and still talk to, you know, today.

JP: Mm-hm, mm-hm. Now, where were your brothers during this time?

FY: I don't know. [both laugh] You know, they were studying or whatever, but I was on the street.

JP: [laughs]

FY: So- so I don't know. You know, I've gotten into a lot of trouble because I was on the street all the time.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: You know, I was up and down the street and, you know, people would complain that I was making too much noise on the street, or I was doing this or doing that, but you know, I kind of just, you know, I did my own thing. My brother- there's four years between me and my second brother.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So they were a little older, and they were studying, working, or whatever, whatever they were doing. So I was, like I said, I was on the street and running around. I mean, I had hula hoops. Remember hula hoops?

JP: My daughter has one.

FY: Oh. Well, I was a hula hoop king back then.

JP: Is that right? [laughs]

FY: And it was just, I just loved to play. And I still remember this, I mean, I was just playing with a hula hoop. I was on Chung King Court-

JP: -uh-huh-

FY: -by the wishing well-

JP: -uh-huh-

FY: -just playing with my hula hoop, like- I mean, I was all up [inaudible]. But I was having- I had the hula hoop going around my waist, going up my arm. And this was- it must have been a Friday night or a weekend night, 'cause there was a lot of people there.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And I was just playing with my hula hoop, and the next thing you know, people are throwing money at me.

JP: Is that right? [both laugh]

FY: So I said, "Oh, yeah, that's great!" They were throwing quarters and money. And so I had, you know, I was doing the hula hoop. And I still remember, I mean I was, you know, made the hula hoop- I was able to make the hula hoop move up my body-

JP: -oh, wow-

FY: -up to my hand on one hand, and with one hand with the hula hoop going, I was able to pick up the money with my other hand. [laughs] So, I mean, that was just a one-time thing [both laugh] that happened, you know. And you know-

JP: -and what did you do with that money?

FY: You know, I put it in the bank, and I still have it in- the same coins in the bank today. I have-

JP: -is that right?

FY: I have a little piggy bank that I put that money in.

JP: Is that right?

FY: And it has the same coins, I never did anything with that money.

JP: Is that right?

FY: It's sitting in the piggy bank. It started- you know, we used to have, um, we used to get the little bull banks from, uh, from Tijuana to sell at the store.

JP: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

FY: And it was a little bull and then there was a little slot, and so I was able to fill up one of those bull banks [laughs] with all the coins that I got that one day.

JP: Oh my goodness! And where did you get one of those banks? [*speakers overlap*] *Did you get them down at Olvera Street?*

FY: *We sold them at- * no, no, we sold them at our store.

JP: Oh, is that right?

FY: Yeah, that was one of the things we sold at our store, too. So this- this bull, and it's broken now, I was able to keep it because one of the horns had broken. So they couldn't sell it, right? So it became my bank.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So I had that bull. And I remember, too, it was a blue velour bull bank [both laugh] that I had filled with a bunch of coins. And then somewhere along the line, I dropped it, but I still have the coins from the bank there. [chuckles]

JP: That's amazing! I'm surprised you didn't buy candy with it or anything.

FY: Well, see, I didn't have to, because I was at Hong Sang Lung all the time.

JP: That's right. Did they have any children themselves?

FY: They had nine kids-

JP: -oh, lord-

FY: -that ran the store.

JP: [laughs] Any of them your age?

FY: Uh, no, they're all older than me. They were all older than me.

JP: Uh-huh, so they kind of adopted you as one of their own.

FY: Yes, yes. Yes, they had nine kids, uh, they're still around. And actually, there is one that's still around. Larry's still running the store, uh, down there. And all the other kids are- they've got some of their own businesses and stuff, too, so. But see, I never had to do that. Because I would- if I would go stack the sodas in the store, or if I stack a shelf or something like that, I got something for it.

JP: [chuckles]

FY: I either got potato chips, or I got a soda, you know, I got some ice cream. And like I said, the mother there, I mean, she kind of adopted me like her own, and she was always giving me stuff. Always.

JP: You hustled her. [both laugh]

FY: Maybe, maybe I was a cute kid to her, but you know. [clears throat] You know, but I worked hard there, too. I can remember, I mean, jeez, ten? I mean, when the big trucks came, the Smart & Final trucks came or the Springfield trucks came to unload their supplies, and they had to- they pulled out the- the- the slide to slide the goods off there, and then we'd each take a box, carry it in. Or when the rice truck came, we'd- I'd unload the fifty-pound, hundred-pound rice, throw it on my shoulder, they had a warehouse on the back there. And the hard part was when they started stacking the rice too high, you had the rice on your shoulder, and you would have to climb the ladder, pass it to the guy, you know, up on top of there. But I- you know, they- when they had dinner, I could sit down and eat dinner with them every- anytime. The biggest help they were to us, or to me, is that in our store, we had one bathroom, and there's six of us.

JP: Right.

FY: So whenever our bathroom was full, I can run away and use their bathroom. [both laugh]

JP: That sounds like a jolly good time with your chums on Chung King Road. Did they also go to school with you?

FY: Some of them did, some of them went to Castelar [Elementary School]. A lot of them didn't actually live there, so yeah, and I don't know what the percentage would be, but some of them went to Castelar with me and some of them didn't, so.

JP: And what were your friends like when you were going to Castelar?

FY: Our friends? You know, Castelar was actually- you know, Chinatown was actually a pretty mixed neighborhood.

JP: Mm-hm, yes.

FY: Chinese, Hispanics, Blacks.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So all through, you know, school, I mean, it was all- actually, all through all the way to high school, it was always a mixed group of kids, you know, from all different races there, so. You know, going to Castelar, most of the kids, or a lot of the kids there, were obviously from Chinatown or around the area there. So most of my friends were- were probably Chinese. But I remember having some- a white guy that I hung around with, and I remember a Black guy, and some Hispanic kids, and they were from the neighborhood, too. But [laughs] yes, school was... Castelar was school. The fun school was to go to Chinese school. [laughs]

JP: That's what I was gonna ask you next. Did you go to Chinese school?

FY: I went to Chinese school.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: [laughs] And if you ever find any of the old teachers there, [both laugh] they would tell you the terror that I was in Chinese school.

JP: Is that right? What did you do?

FY: I had fun, that's all. I mean, you know, it was boy stuff, like climb on the roof and, you know. We'd ring the- they have a bell there to ring when school was out, and I would always go ring the bell to get out of school. You know, it was a couple hours after school, as it was from like four to six.

JP: And it was at Castelar?

FY: No, that wasn't. It was at the Chinese school behind Castelar.

JP: Okay, mm-hm, mm-hm.

FY: The Chinese school is actually still there, but- and a lot of the kids from Chinese school were actually from Castelar, too. And I actually, actually have a video from Chinese school.

JP: Is that right?

FY: That Jeff Chan- I don't know if you know Jeff Chan or not, but he did the lion dance a lot in Chinatown.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: But back when we were kids here, [he was] one of the few guys that had, actually, a video camera. So he was going through a lot of his stuff that, uh, that he had, and found some video of me.

JP: Wow, wow.

FY: And actually, Jeff is somebody that I followed to learn the lion dance, actually, when we were- when I was younger in China[town]. And how I met Jeff was, my mom was a seamstress.

JP: Oh?

FY: She sewed clothes in the back of the store while she was- when there was no customers there. My dad was away, he was at Kwong Dack Wo, which was a grocery store on Spring Street, where- actually, where CVS is now-

JP: -yes, yes.

FY: It was there. So that was a grocery store.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: So my dad kept books there. And then at nighttime after he got off- he'd get off work about six o'clock, and then back then, there was another- on the Hill Street side, what used to be Castelar, but it's now called Hill Street, was a restaurant called Celestial. So it's- actually, it's... [drums fingers on table] It used to be, uh, Plum Tree [Inn].

JP: Yes.

FY: Yeah, that used- way back then, it was called Celestial.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So when he would get off work from there, he would wash dishes at- at the Celestial.

JP: And your mom would run the store.

FY: My mom would run the store, and she would sew. She would sew clothes in the back until somebody came in, right? So that's how I met Jeff. Jeff had just started- was doing lion dance around Chinatown, so he needed uniforms. [both laugh] So he heard that my mom was a good seamstress, and then so he came over looking to her to make uniforms.

JP: [*speakers overlap*] *Pants, yeah! Uh-huh.*

FY: *Uniform pants, yes.* So my mom sewed a lot of his first uniform pants [*speakers overlap*] *that he had.*

JP: *Is that right?*FY: So that's how I met him, and I- and one of the first, I guess, big shows that he had was at the Shrine Auditorium.

JP: Wow!

FY: It was some kind of performance, and I don't really know because I was kind of young then, but he needed me as a prop, I guess. [laughs] So here's this kid, uh, that he wanted to hold the Chinese flag. And so my mom sewed me a, one of those changshans [traditional robe].

JP: Yeah!

FY: And then one of the hats, so for me to be the prop. And then so after that, I started to become involved, and he started teaching me how to do the lion dance and I learned how to do the lion dance from him. And actually, eventually we, um, as we got older, we actually formed our own lion dance group with some of the other kids in Chinatown, too.

JP: Oh, what was it called?

FY: It was called the Golden Lion Dancers.

JP: Oh!

FY: And we actually, [laughs] we actually did a show here at Cal State LA-

JP: -uh-huh-

FY: -back in the '70s, I think. '60s and '70s, yeah, '70- early '70s, we actually did a show out in the field out there, and those were all the kids from Chinatown that we had learned how to do the lion dance with. So he was one of the guys that had a, um, a video camera way back then, you would think that they-

JP: -back in the '60s!

FY: Yeah, you'd think, "A video camera?" We were just learning about cameras. So he had filmed, unbeknownst to me at that time, he had filmed the kids at Chinese school. And then he had filmed us when we were doing some, when I was a kid, when we had some lion dance stuff that we did, too. So the lion dance stuff, I haven't got through everything yet, but the Chinese school stuff, it was so- it was so funny to deal with it, you know. I edited some footage from it, you know, with myself and some of the other kids in Chinese school.

JP: Now, did you learn anything from Chinese school?

FY: [laughs] I learned how to climb on the roof. [both laugh] Actually, I did. I actually- and I have to say I've forgotten all the reading and writing, but I actually learned how to listen, or to understand Cantonese.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: Because when we came here, everybody else spoke Toisan.

JP: Right.

FY: That was the only dialect.

JP: Right.

FY: Like to me, that was Chinese. That was the only thing I ever knew that was Chinese. [clears throat] So- and I can remember when I was young, when we were at the store, we had a- he was a Caucasian guy, I guess, that has spent time in Hong Kong. So he came to our store, and my dad was at the store, and my dad was conversing with him. And as I walked up, they were conversing. And I'm thinking, "What are they speaking?" So they had their short conversation, and afterwards I asked my dad, I said, "Dad, what were you guys talking?" He goes, "Well, we're speaking Cantonese." I said, "How come I don't understand any of that?" [both laugh] He goes, "Oh yeah, that's just," and then he explains it was just a different dialect, but you know, I didn't understand it. So I attribute my being able to understand a little bit of Cantonese from going to Chinese school.

JP: Oh, is that right?

FY: Yes.

JP: So at home then, you spoke Cantonese, or you spoke Toisan, right?

FY: Toisan, yes.

JP: And most of the people then on Chung King Road, they were all Toisan speakers?

FY: Everybody spoke Toisan.

JP: Everybody did.

FY: I don't remember anybody speaking Cantonese until later on in the years, and absolutely nobody spoke Mandarin.

JP: Mm-hm, yeah, that's certainly the case.

FY: So yeah, everybody spoke Toisan on Chung King Road.

JP: So you seem to have a lot of memorable experiences from Chinese school. Did you not have any memorable, like, things that were memorable from Castelar, though?

FY: You know, I don't... [sighs] You know, Castelar was more academic, uh...

JP: Uh-huh, it's just a blur to you. [laughs]

FY: Yeah, well, you know, there was- one of the things that I do remember from Castelar is, you know, how funny it is you say everybody kind of remembers where they were when President Kennedy was assassinated.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So I remember my teacher, Mrs. Amov, lining us up and telling us and telling us that he was assassinated, I remember that from elementary school.

JP: Wow.

FY: And yeah, and in elementary- yeah, I remember some of the teachers. But it was- there wasn't too much goofing around back then. You know, [laughs] I still remember a couple of my kindergarten songs and some of the teachers there, but it was, you know, mostly the things that- I guess, even the academic part I probably don't remember too much, but you know, the playing foursquare. The playing, right? Hopscotch, I really liked to play hopscotch there and-

JP: -so you remember all the games! [both laugh]

FY: Punchball, right? All the fun stuff, you know, and the- the ice cream that they served behind the cafeteria.

JP: What kind of ice cream did they sell there?

FY: 50/50.

JP: Is that- I love those.

FY: 50/50, and then these- the sandwich bars.

JP: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

FY: And I remember the girls that were- actually, one of the girls that used to sell ice cream, I'm still in contact with her. A lot of the kids that- you know, and I have- and I don't know why or how it was done, but I have pictures of other kids in elementary school.

JP: Is that right?

FY: From Castelar. Note there's [not] any other pictures of me, but some of the kids that I played with in elementary school.

JP: Did you have a camera?

FY: I- yeah, I must have had a camera.

JP: Wow.

FY: So, and you know, I think about it, and why I would have a camera? And I think this, I think a lot of the [smacks lips] important documents my parents have, copies were made with cameras. [*speakers overlap*] *They took pictures of it.*JP: *Ah, is that right?*

FY: So I remember having a- I remember they had a Browning, one of the old Browning cameras with little flip tops and that. And that was always kept in the drawer, we weren't really allowed to use that. But they had another small camera which was a 126 camera that, you know, knowing me, I probably just took it [chuckles] and went to take pictures without asking them. And you know, I've always worked. You know, I don't remember not working since I was a kid.

JP: Wow.

FY: You know, so I had money to get the stuff developed. I mean, I went to the corner drugstore and had it developed and bought more films, and I remember buying flash bulbs and...

JP: Wow. What drugstore was it?

FY: It's, um...

JP: Was it the one with the soda fountain?

FY: No. This was, um, it's owned by the Lums. I can't think of their name now, it's around the corner of College and Broadway. Um, I'll think of the name, but yeah, it was a pharmacy, actually. Right, pharmacy. And we used to go there because they would sell comic books there. [both laugh] We'd sit there and read the comic books, you know, "Archie" comic books, the "Superman" comic books. But that's where we got the films developed, too. So I must have, because I've got pictures of my sixth grade teacher, this is part of my, all my sixth grade class. Most of it's all sixth grade, but some of the other kids on the playground and stuff like that, I have pictures of, too, so.

JP: That's amazing.

FY: [laughs] You know, I look back and it's just, wow, you know? I must be a pack rat like my dad, 'cause I've got a lot of that old-

JP: [laughs]

FY: -old stuff from school. And I don't know if you had it or not, but we had autograph books.

JP: I did, too.

FY: Did you?

JP: Uh-huh, I had-

FY: -well, I still have my sixth grade autograph book.

JP: I don't have my sixth grade autograph book, you are a pack rat. [both laugh] So then you- okay, so Castelar for you was a series of pictures, and going out and playing dodgeball and tetherball and foursquare. Do you remember middle school?

FY: Uh, middle school, yeah, I do. I went to [Florence] Nightingale Middle School.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: Then, again, that was more- I mean, a mix of Hispanics, and we had Blacks and Chinese, and taking the number 7 or number 6 bus to get to it. You used to catch it on Broadway and College there, and then- and then depending on which bus you took, depending where they let you off, across the street or right next to the school. But you know, I probably have my fondest memories of school in junior high school, as supposed to a high school.

JP: Is that right? Why was that?

FY: You know, I- I think middle is just the time of growing up, I mean, where you started learning to bond or deal with, you know, other people outside of your community-

JP: -right-

FY: -that came from, you know, different places. I mean, there- I remember that [chuckles] the cafeteria had the best food [both laugh] at junior high school compared to high school. They had a lot better- everybody said, "Yeah, when you get to high school, the food is junk here." But, you know, the food is good here, so.

JP: What kind of food did they have?

FY: They had tacos and enchiladas and...

JP: Wow!

FY: So you know, I grew- we grew up, I mean, where we lived, I mean, there was- right next to the Kim Sing Theatre, there was a Mexican market. So we'd walk from Chinatown up there to go buy tamales.

JP: Oh, wow.

FY: Two for a quarter, right? [laughs] 'Cause they were two, and they'd make 'em and cook 'em and they came like that, so. My mom would always go to the Kim Sing Theatre, and then she would take us until we got to a point where we were too old and then we had to buy tickets, and so we stopped going after we got to that point there.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So, but yeah, junior high school, I mean, I have... A lot of the kids there that I went to elementary school [with] went to Nightingale, too. But it was like, you know, it was- it was a fun time. And we learned how to dance, you know?

JP: You actually danced? [*speakers overlap*] *With girls?*

FY: *Yeah,* back in the '60s, yeah. [laughs] Learned how to dance, and then-

JP: -okay.

FY: And that was my first- they had just started, it was- they had just started boys' cooking.

JP: Wow, wonderful!

FY: And I was in the first class of boys' cooking, myself and a couple of other friends.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And you know, maybe it was just having the fun times that I remember, but we learned- I just remember the first thing we learned how to cook was peanut butter cookies.

JP: Is that right?

FY: [laughs] And I can still remember the first thing that I- peanut butter cookies. And to make the design on top of the cookie, you took a fork-

JP: -fork-

FY: -and pressed on it crossways. [both laugh] And I still remember that at the end of the semester, when you had your final, I guess you would call it, and you had to make something, how we would- or at least, we did. You had a group of four kids in each group, and you all had to cook something.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: [smacks lips] And so we did, and we had another group of friends over there, and so we had gone over to go sabotage their project. [both laugh] We took a whole bunch of salt and poured it in their project [laughs] and let them cook it.

JP: Oh my goodness! Did you really do that?

FY: And watched them eat it. [both laugh] Oh, I still remember that day.

JP: That's terrible!

FY: Oh, it is. But to us, we were just having fun, it was mischievious [sic] good fun.

JP: Yes.

FY: And that, yeah, so things like that. We had the noon dance.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: It was five cents to go to noon dance. And then we had the noon movies, it was five cents and you'd watch different movies at different sequence. So every day, you'd have half an hour of watching them.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: And the big cinnamon rolls I used to get for a dime, and it was- and you know, the teachers were great. We had a good time with the teachers, I mean... Yeah, I think that's probably one of the- the best times that I probably had. I mean, I was busy, 'cause I was working, too. And actually just before going to junior high school, I had kind of a family uncle. You know, not a real uncle, but you would call him. They had a- he had a hamburger stand in Inglewood.

JP: Is that right?

FY: On Crenshaw. So I would go, I would get out of school, and I would catch the bus to Florence and Crenshaw from Chinatown. Florence and Crenshaw, get off of Florence and walk up further south on Crenshaw to a place called Boy's Drive-in. And I would work, I would work there- and this is just on a Friday.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So, and I would work there. He did the cook side and I did the fountain side, and when it was busy. And when it wasn't busy, then I'd come over and I'd help cook. I like cooking.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So, and then I would stay with him all weekend, and then he would bring me back home on Sunday.

JP: Wow.

FY: And I earned six dollars for the weekend. [laughs] So I had money to spend.

JP: How long did you keep that up?

FY: You know, I kept that up for probably about, uh... I want to say, maybe about six months to a year.

JP: Wow.

FY: And then-

JP: -that's a long time.

FY: Yeah, yeah. Take the bus out there, and then my real uncle ended up opening up a restaurant out in Tujunga.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: And so then I took the bus out there to work on weekends.

JP: And your mom didn't mind that you took-

FY: -no, no.

JP: It wasn't dangerous?

FY: No, it wasn't dangerous or anything. And I guess they knew me, right?

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: And I didn't have any problems, you know, jumping around the bus and going out there and working. When I was out in Tujunga, I mean, I'd catch the bus out there, and then I'd catch the 810 bus coming back to Chinatown and get back about nine o'clock, so.

JP: Wow. Now you mentioned that food was really important, especially since you took cooking classes and you helped your uncle in the restaurants.

FY: Mm-hm.

JP: But I want you to talk a little bit about the cooking that happened at your home, when you ate at home. [both chuckle] What kind of food did your mom cook? Did you have any favorite meals from your mom?

FY: Well, you know, and I'll say this. You know, back in Chinatown, and I see it now... we were probably very poor.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: But I didn't know it.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: Because I always had- I wasn't hungry or anything. And if I didn't eat at home, I could always go to Hong Sang Lung and eat.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: But, you know, the stuff that I do remember eating from my mom -- and I know because probably she was working and watching the store and my dad was working all day -- but sometimes I remember just salt fish and and pork over some rice and water.

JP: Mm-hm. Some jook [rice porridge].

FY: It wasn't even jook. It was just rice and then you mix in a little water, and then you have some, uh, fish, salt fish with it, or some shrimp paste, haam ha.

JP: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

FY: Or a lot of times... I, you know, my mom- we were lucky in the sense that a lot of the left-over stuff that Hong Sang Lung had, they gave to us.

JP: Mm.

FY: So the end of the bologna, the long bologna when they cut off and they can't slice anymore-

JP: -right-

FY: -they gave it to us, and so that's what we would eat. My mom would make soup with the bones, the pork bones.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And when she was done making the soup, we'd pull the pork bone or whatever meat was on there, we'd put a little bit of salt on it and we'd eat that.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: So those are the kinds of things that, you know, I remember. But like I said, I never felt poor, or I never felt hungry. I know that when my mom actually went out to work as a seamstress at a seamstress factory, um, she would stock- we would have TV dinners stocked in the freezer for the kids.

JP: Wow.

FY: And I think the only- the thing that I probably remember most, whenever one of us had a birthday, my mom would make fried chicken.

JP: Is that right?

FY: And I love fried chicken to this day. [laughs]

JP: Fried chicken Chinese style, or fried chicken Southern style? Or what do you mean, fried chicken?

FY: You know, she would do the fried chicken in a cornmeal, in some kind of a crispy cornmeal, and just fry it in oil in- in a pan.

JP: Wow.

FY: So that was our- I mean, there was no birthday cakes or anything like that. It was just, "Oh, it's your birthday, you get fried chicken." Yeah.

JP: Fried chicken, that's beautiful. For holidays, did your mom make anything like joong [zongzi, sticky rice bundles]?

FY: Well, ac- my mom was actually a very good cook. She- I remember the basement, I mean, she would make joong.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: She would always make joong, to the point where Hong Sang Lung used to ask her to make the joong so they could sell it.

JP: Sell it, uh-huh.

FY: Yeah. And so she would salt her own eggs, and have the eggs all salted down in, you know, in the jars and everything. And for the longest time, she would make- and of course, we'd have it, too. But we would have the joong and then she would, whatever [was left], she'd take it over there and they would sell. And they gave her the materials, and then they would give her whatever it was for after they sold the joong, too.

JP: Wow, wow. And how did your mom make the joong? Did she make the long kind or did she make the triangular ones, do you remember?

FY: Uh, it's- how would you say, it's- they're, they were twisted. They were twisted, I remember they were twisted, but she made the white rice one.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: And then she made the- I don't know, in Chinese they're called gan sui [jong] [jianshui zong, alkaline rice dumplings].

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: The ones that are made- the brown ones with the sweet inside.

JP: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

FY: So she made- she made those two.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: And then the people around Chinatown- you know, like mom's cooking is always good, right? But the people around Chinatown would say, "Oh, she used to make the best one, yeah."

JP: That's wonderful.

FY: And then that's why, you know, Hong Sang Lung was selling them, you know. We got a lot of stuff from Hong Sang Lung because- you know, I can remember when the vegetables would come in that they would -- for the orders for the restaurants, or what they would sell at the store and everything -- they had to clean 'em up. And whatever they cleaned off of 'em, we took 'em. And she would dry them out in the back, choy gon [dried bok choy] from the bok choy. And then she would dry 'em out in the back, she would make her own lap yuk [là ròu, cured pork belly].

JP: Mm-hm. [sighs] That's so good.

FY: [laughs] She would make the lap yuk. I could remember the little screen, the box she had in the back that was out drying in the sun, and you know, that was a lot of the food that we had there. You know, she- I think a lot of it, she just didn't have the time to cook.

JP: Yeah, she worked two jobs.

FY: Yeah. But as we got older and she didn't work too much, I know after we moved out of Chinatown, then she started cooking a lot more. She used to, and I guess they don't- she used to bake this sponge cake that only she could make.

JP: Mm-hm.

FY: The yellow sponge cake.

JP: Mm-hm, mm-hm, mm-hm.

FY: And everybody would say, "Hey, bake it for us!" She goes, "I'll show you, I'll show you!" And nobody could follow it, right? And she would make her own zhi ma hu, you know, the black sesame [soup]?

JP: Oh my goodness, really?

FY: Yeah, and we would have soymilk.

JP: Wow. Did she ground it herself?

FY: Well, she had a, we had a grinder.

JP: Uh-huh.

FY: We had an electric grinder.

JP: Wow.

FY: That's one of the things, and it's still- we still have that down in the basement, actually.

JP: What is not in your basement? [both laugh]

FY: You know, everything that we- you know, I think what happened is that anything from that store, when we moved out of that store, that we didn't live with, it went to our basement and it still sits there. I haven't even gone through that basement yet-

JP: -oh my goodness-

FY: -so there's gotta- I know that... I know that the original sign for our store, the paper sign, is still down there.

JP: Is that right?

FY: I can still see that down there. Uh, but you know, there's... My brother a few years ago -- not a few years, but probably more ten, fifteen years ago -- found all his old Superman comic books.

JP: Well, your brother must be rich now. [both laugh]

FY: Yeah, he says these things are worth money now, you know? So you know, it's- after we moved out of Chinatown, it was like, then she started cooking at home. And we had the fat choys [black moss] and, you know, the chicken and all that stuff, so. That was all family cooking, but back then when we were in Chinatown, she probably just didn't have the time to do all that cooking and stuff.

JP: And your father worked two jobs as well.

FY: Yeah, my father was working, too, so we didn't see too much of him back then, too, so. And actually, as I'm thinking, as a kid, I probably very rarely saw my dad when we were in Chinatown. He was just busy working, and then my mom was the disciplinarian, and [laughs] you know, so yeah.

JP: Frank, you know, we've been talking for two hours now, I don't know if you realize.

FY: [laughs] Oh, no way!

JP: And I was hoping that you would agree to do a follow-up interview-

FY: -sure-

JP: -because we only just got to, you know, your childhood.

FY: Yeah.

JP: And so, you know, I wanted to ask you a lot more about, number one, some of the things your mother cooked, and then a little bit more about family life.

FY: Sure.

JP: And then to talk more about your schooling, when you remembered your schooling, rather than the playground.

FY: [chuckles] Well, that's all I remember about the schooling, playing. [both laugh]

JP: And so I was hoping that we could do a follow-up interview with you.

FY: Sure, sure, yeah.

JP: I wanted to thank you for your time. I mean, we've been talking for two hours, so.

FY: You know, it doesn't seem like it. And I really, I mean, I think that- to me, it's enjoyable, because I think I had a- a very enjoyable childhood.

JP: Yeah, you certainly did.

FY: And I think- you know, and I look back at it, and I think I've had a blessed life, really.

JP: Yeah, yeah.

FY: And so there's really- I mean, yeah, there's little small things, but I think the majority of- of everything has been very enjoyable for me. It's pleasurable, so I don't- I enjoyed it, is basically what I'm trying to say. And if I... I guess, you know, if you don't tell it, then nobody knows.

JP: Right.

FY: Right, so.

JP: Well, Frank, on behalf of the Chinese American Oral History Project, I wanna thank you for your time. And I'm looking forward to talking to you again, probably for another two or three hours.

FY: Sure.

JP: [laughs]

FY: And a lot of the stuff that I say that I have, I mean, I've got pictures of. I've taken pictures-

JP: -wonderful, wonderful-

FY: -of everything I did, so we can talk a little bit more about, you know, how we wanna go about displaying all this stuff and going about that, so. But thanks for your time, really. [laughs]

JP: Thank you!